Marketing Interactions

Content Marketing Hubs Deliver ROI

Last week I was part of the panel for the Marketing Superhero webinar hosted by OnPath where we discussed how to create demand generation strategies for 2012. I chose to make my tip about Content Hubs.

A Content Hub is a content marketing program that takes full advantage of a bigger content asset to combine lead generation with lead nurturing and gain optimal value from your investment in content development.

A Content Hub serves to:

• Generate leads and/or engage prospects by providing a valuable, extended experience.
• Presents the topic in a variety of ways through a variety of channels that all lead back to the hub.
• Keeps marketers on point by focusing everything around one topic important to buyers.

Here's what a content hub looks like:

In this example, I've used a webinar as the anchor content in the center of the hub. You can also use a white paper or other "big" content asset. Most marketers don't gain the true value of their most meaty content investments. In the case of webinars - the usual campaign includes:

• Send webinar invitation emails to your database.
• Promote through social media.
• Send a reminder email the day of the event.
• Hold the event.
• Send the archive link and file the webinar away as completed on the task list.

What a waste of your investment.

Instead, consider all the ways you can use that content - both pre and post event.

From the Pre-event perspective:

In addition to the above usual stuff, pull out a couple of the topics that will be covered in the webinar and write several blog posts to give people a preview. Get them excited and include the link for registration.

Start a discussion in a LinkedIn group that will appreciate the topic. Don't just post an advertisement for the webinar. As a question or two that will be answered in the webinar and discuss why it's important to consider the ways various answers might affect whatever. Then invite people to attend. Also submit it to events on LinkedIn.

Issue a press release that includes a two-minute preview video with the presenter. Have them hit on the high points of what attendees will learn. Include the biography and picture of the presenter and perhaps a one-page checklist or cheat sheet that people can download that will encourage them to sign up for the webinar to learn how to use it.

After the Event:

Take the slide deck and spiff it up for SlideShare. If it's mostly graphics with not a lot of text - which most good presentation decks should be - add some brief text to clarify the graphics and ensure that when you flip through the deck, the story unfolds without gaps. Post it to SlideShare and embed in in a blog post.

Take all the questions that were submitted during the webinar and write a Q&A blog post. If you don't have enough questions, create some more that your readers will find useful and answer those too. Even if you answered them during the webinar, people won't remember. Those who didn't attend the webinar may be inspired to go watch it. Never forget that webinars have a shelf-life that needs to be addressed.

Have the recorded audio transcribed, edit it and turn it into a white paper. Use some of the slides as graphics or the information on them to create sidebars. Voila - you have another meaty content asset and perhaps a new lead generation vehicle. Add in some expertise that wasn't covered in the webinar to make it fresh and new.

Take several of the points made in the webinar and spin a new article series that you can use in a nurturing program. Cull out several two or three minute snips of audio and create short podcasts that you can embed on your website along with the other materials.

Remember to create a comprehensive display of all the resources so that your Content Hub is useful, rich and worth returning to repeatedly. Make it the destination for people interested in that topic.

Creating Content Hubs gives marketers a number of content assets all focused on a topic prospects have expressed interest in learning more about. It streamlines the creation process and escalates the ROI marketers can earn from their investments.

One of the biggest challenges marketers state is creating relevant content. Another is creating enough of it. With a Content Hub, you can nail both challenges with ease. A Content Hub is an excellent way to gain more traction with your content marketing efforts.

18 B2B Reasons to Attend Content Marketing World

As I finalize my slide deck for my presentation "Build a Better Experience with Content Marketing" for Content Marketing World, I'm getting really excited to be there.

This is the first year that we've had several conferences focused on content marketing:

• Content Marketing Strategies Conference in Berkeley in Feb was intimate and impactful,
• Confab in Minneapolis in May was fantastic,
• DemandCon was dedicated to the entire pipeline, including both marketing and sales,
• and now Joe Pulizzi and the classy folks at the Content Marketing Institute are putting on CMW. 

It's been quite a year, so far...

In thinking about why I'm so excited for this show, I thought I'd share a few reasons with you. You know, just in case you're still sitting on the fence about being there. You've got two weeks - plenty of time to make plans to come.

1. The Rock and Roll Hall of Fame - how can you pass up an opening party in that venue?
2. Live blog chat with Mack Collier - I had the pleasure of meeting Mack at Marketing Profs B2B Forum in Boston and he's the real deal! And, even better, blog chat live will be held at the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame!
3. The chance to hear Sally Hogshead talk about The Power of Story!
4. David Meerman Scott - nuff said. If you haven't seen him in person, you need to!
5. The Content Marketing Technology Cage Match at lunch - It'll be interesting to see what the speakers can pack into only 5 minutes worth of presentation time. Sounds like a show down to me!
6. HP, Dupont, Vertical Measures, Dell and Kelly Services are sharing insider views of what it takes to manage content within their companies - should be an eyeopener!
7. Pam Didner from Intel is dishing on how to manage a global editorial planning. Considering that this is one of the hardest things for marketers to master, can you afford to miss her insights?
8. Who knows more about fans than sports organizations? The CAVs, Browns and Indians are sharing their secrets to social media strategies. I'll just bet their insights can be adapted for businesses who want more raving fans - stay tuned.
9. Brian Clark and Michael Stelzner are sharing how they built Copyblogger and Social Media Examiner into raging successes by using content.
10. A great panel on how to use metrics to justify content marketing budgets.
11. Fireside Content Marketing Chats with a number of experts.
12. More Shotgun Sessions during lunch, just to keep things lively!
13. Lee Odden!
14. Strategies for getting your content found - who doesn't need that?
15. Ann Handley and C.C. Chapman!
16. Jason Falls is sharing The Content Marketing Measurement Roadmap
17. Kevin Smith entertains us with comedy one night and then discusses how he became a storyteller.
18. Last, but never least, the Godfather of Content Marketing, Joe Pulizzi is masterminding this event. 

And those are just the B2B reasons. If I was a B2C marketer, I'd have to start another list.

I have to say that I'm really excited about the diversity of topics and the real-world experience that will be shared at CMW. I hope I'll see you there.

I mean, seriously, how can you pass up the chance to gain so much insight that you can put to work right away? Content marketing is the now and the future of marketing. It's time to stop thinking about it and start doing it. Or, if you're doing it now, do it better. The rewards are huge.

Marketers need to develop new skill sets and those 18 reasons to attend above contain tips and insights that will help you understand and embrace a number of them.

This isn't just any conference - it's Content Marketing World!

DemandCon Video: Storytelling Turns Prospects Into Buyers

The guys from VisibleGains did a great job facilitating the video of my presentation at DemandCon. If you're interested in using storytelling to improve sustainable engagement wtih your content marketing programs, I hope you'll find some ideas that will be helpful.

 

Thanks to Joe Eldridge, Cliff Pollan and their team for shooting the video and to Steve Gershik and Shawn Elledge for putting on a great event! And special thanks to the audience for being fantastic!

Marketing and Sales - Two islands, no bridge?

Last week I was in Minneapolis speaking at Confab and attending AA-ISP. It's the first time I've gone directly from a conference focused exclusively on content strategy to an inside sales conference. Can I just say, Whoa!

It was like hoping from one island to another without a bridge.

First, a snapshot of my impressions of Confab:

• Wonderful conference with a tight focus on a topic that's my passion
• Commaraderie that spawned comments such as "I found my people!"
• Inspiring conversations with people who actually "get" content
• Met a number of people I've been watching/stalking from afar
• Had a great crowd at my presentation that asked very thoughtful questions - bless all of you!
• Cake (lots of CAKE) and our own cocktail - the Lorem Sipsum - and it was GOOD!

Overall, it was inspiring! I thought, WOW, marketers are making a lot of progress. In a number of conversations, I met marketers who were rocking it, but weren't sure they really were. Yes - all of you, take note - you're on the right track.

I felt great - cake not withstanding.

Then I went two blocks down the street to sign books and attend the AA-ISP conference.

As a marketer, it was like walking into a foreign land. And I say this having worked and collaborated wtih a number of inside sales organizations on successful projects. I actually knew as many people at this conference as I did at Confab. Many of them on board with the alignment imperative between the two professions.

Unfortunately, what I found in several of the presentations that I attended was either a total lack or respect for marketing or no mention of them at all. In all fairness, many marketers don't mention sales much, but it does come up more often since marketing actually serves sales (or they should be).

Here's the part that really sets me back. There were a number of really terrific ideas presented at AA-ISP. Really good, with the potential to be great collaborative efforts with marketing in order to create higher efficiencies and greater momentum in the sales process. Wonderful opportunities for overlays.

But the emphasis was on sales owning, controlling and keeping all of these ideas on their island. No sharing.

I can't help but wonder that if this is what salespeople are learning at conferences, no wonder the subject of alignment is still as controversial today as it ever was. And going nowhere fast.

Which brings me to a question that my friend, Trish Bertuzzi (@bridgegroupinc) posed in a recent Focus roundtable we did together:

If prospects are spending up to 70% of their buying process with marketing, why is it that only 50% of sales reps are meeting quota?

Seems to me that both marketing and sales need to bridge this gap and work together if we're going to improve the prospects' experience during their buying process to the point that objectives are met on both sides of the equation.

I'm not placing blame on sales, I'm just noting that something's gotta give if we're going to reach higher levels of success for our companies. It really shouldn't be this hard. Ultimately we're all working toward the same goals...aren't we?

On the high side - I watched Anneke Seley (@annekeseley) receive her Lifetime Achievement Award and was proud to be there clapping and cheering for her. Congrats, Anneke!

Product vs. Solution vs. Perspective

The Sirius Decisions Summit is happening this week and I'm wishing my schedule would have allowed me to be there in person rather than absorbing the wisdom through Twitter #sds11 - but thankfully I have at least that.

In reviewing the Tweets from yesterday [Thanks to @sgersh for compliling] I saw a Tweet posted by Carlos Hidalgo (@cahidalgo) that caught my interest.

RT @cahidalgo: 57% of #sds11 attendees say their mktg/sales approach is Product-centric but want to move to solution centric.

As I'm observing from afar, I may be misinterpreting, but this makes me want to wave my arms and say - "Stop and think!"

Solution-centric may be a step up from Product-centric marketing, but most B2B companies approach solution marketing is as a way to sell more stuff by bundling it together, not so much to help buyers find the best way to solve a problem.

This is where perspective needs to play a bigger role. Instead of focusing on products or solutions, marketers need to focus on improving the buyer experience - from THEIR perspective. The only way this happens if if we make our buyers the pivotal point around which all of our marketing content revolves.

But perspective is also bigger than that. It must be dynamic because solutions to problems evolve faster than the nature of problems change. With the length of a complex B2B buying process, this can also mean that what was important to your buyers at the beginning of their journey has changed by the time they get done with their research, involve others on the buying committee, etc.

To create marketing content focused on the buyer experience, we must also look farther into the pipeline and create a plan for getting more than just attention and a bit of interest. True engagement takes time, education, the sharing of expertise and the ability to frame context to invite serious consideration.

There's a lot that needs to happen after lead generation and qualification to make that happen.

This is going to be a big challenge for many given that, of the 800 attendees at the Sirius Decisions Summit, 61% are focusing their lead nurturing programs on pre-marketing-qualified leads and another 18% are doing nothing with their leads.

Before marketers decide to trade in one approach for another, the first thing they need to do is figure out what their prospective customers need. If you address their issues from their perspective as related to what your offerings enable, product vs. solution will cease to be the choice.

Content Marketing Strategies Conference Wrap Up

Last week I attended and presented at the Content Marketing Strategies Conference 2011 up in Oakland, CA. Bill Flitter and Dlvr.it put on a great experience by inviting a wide variety of speakers to contribute. The audience was terrific and interactive which made the two days very engaging and memorable.

I'd like to share my presentaton deck, as well as some thoughts and takeaways that I think you'll find useful:

Content & Conversations

View more presentations from Ardath Albee.

This conference was right up my alley as many of the speakers were focused on storytelling with content marketing. The following are some sound bytes that really resonated with me on the first day of the event.

Simon Kelly (@kellbags), CEO of Story Worldwide

The future of advertising is "magnetic content."

"Nobody has 30 seconds for interruption but everbody has 30 minutes to spread the stuff they like."

He also stated that we need to shift our view from impressions to engagement. Impressions being the number of views vs. engagement being time spent + next steps taken.

Simon talked about the cycle of paid media > owned media > earned media. Paid media is a never-ending cycle of paying and paying again. Making the transition to owned and earned media will increase your impact and credibility in the marketplace.

Joe Pulizzi (@JuntaJoe), Founder Junta42 and the Content Marketing Institute

Funnily enough, we've worked together for years, but this was the first time I met Joe in person. It was also a gift to see him speak in person. Bill continuously referred to Joe as the Godfather of Content Marketing and I'm sharing that tidbit as it made Joe blush, yet there's a lot of truth in the comparison. (Sorry, Joe! All in good fun.)

"It's not what you sell, but what you stand for." When's the last time you actually thought about the marketing story you're telling from that perspective? Joe illustrated the point by using Gary Vaynerchuk as an example. Gary isn't selling wine, he's all about enabling people to understand the wine experience. I don't think there are many here who could argue with his success with this approach.

Joe shared a number of content marketing mistakes with us - here are a few:

• Your content has too many goals.
• Your content is about everything. You need to get "Super Niche."
• Good enough is NOT good enough.
• Lack of a content calendar hampers your efforts.
• No internal support.

I agree with all of his points, especially the need to get "Super Niche." That ability to hone in on what really makes your company different and explodes your value is critical to effective content marketing.

Powan Deshpande (@contentcurating), CEO & Founder - Hivefire

I haven't always been a supporter of content curation. In fact, Powan thinks that I bite, which is probably a fair statement. This said, listening to him talk about the power of curation and the need for marketers with limited resources to employ curation to help them become a valued informational resource for their audiences swayed me...a bit.

I have to say that his five steps and his premise of creating a stream of content that helps your prospects want to engage with it and (as a result) hear from you everyday is a compelling argument in favor of content curation. Plus, he won me over by including the need for marketers to curate their own content.

Powan's steps include:

1. Identify a topic with sufficient content (Repeating the idea of Super Niche).
2. Follow the influencers to find great content.
3. Choose only the most relevant of that content to share with your audience.
4. Create the role of a librarian to organize your content - tags, featured, indexed, etc.
5. Create your own content. (Shouldn't be last, in my opinion)

And, he emphasized the need for marketers to add the appropriate commentary - which I really like. This gives you the ability to share your expertise and insights along with spreading others' ideas/content.

Most impressive was that he shared customer testimonials that evidenced a curator using the platform could process 600 articles for curation in a matter of 20 - 30 minutes. Like his customer said, you physically couldn't do that on your own.

One of the really interesting things that Powan shared was about a study where Google and Yahoo switched interfaces (search results remained with the original provider, only the user interface was different), but people still chose Google. That's brand trust. The implication being that establishing a curation stream will help you build trust as well, regardless of where the content comes from. Interesting point.

Thanks, Powan - I'm thinking about curation a bit differently now.

Arnie Kuenn (@ArnieK), President of Vertical Measures

Arnie talked about search in relation to content marketing. He emphasized the importance of titles and title tags and shared a number of ideas for how to identify keywords.

He spoke a bit about keyword phrases and indicated that the longer the phrase used, the closer to the end stage of the buying process. How many of you are identifying the longer phrases and taking the appropriate action when prospects use them?

He also shared a Hubspot statistic that found that 79% of companies with a blog have more Twitter followers than companies without one. Another indication that content marketing is driving engagement. In fact, I wonder what people without a blog are Tweeting about that pulls traffic to their web properties???

Sally Falkow (@sallyfalkow), Sr. Fellow - Society for New Communications Research

• Markets are conversations
• You are not a censor
• Find stories that people want to hear
• Bring people into stories

Sally shared a story about how SAP used conversations to reverse a negative situation. They had a user group that had resorted to posting negative messages about the company because it was the only way they could get the company's attention. Once SAP engaged with them, 95% of the negativity ceased. Just goes to show you the power of a conversation. Make sure your company is recognizing when people want to engage with you and answering back appropriately.

Luca Penati (@lucapenati), Managing Director, Global Technology Practice, OgilvyPR

Social networks are the new news feeds.

Luca emphasized that we need to create a storyteller culture in the digital age because content is the common thread.

He also provided a new spin on the monarchy theme of content - which I rather like:

• Content is King
• Activation is Queen
• Court is community

The upshot being that leaving your "King" alone is not a wise choice that will help you get results in the kingdom. Very solid point.

**

I really enjoyed this conference. Kudos to Bill and his team for putting on a great time. There was much more than what I've shared here. Hopefully others will post about their experience as well.

Chirpstory compiled the conference Tweets.

How to Win the Content Marketing Marathon

One of the top challenges for B2B marketers is the creation of compelling content in the volume required to fuel lead nurturing programs, website content, blog posts, Twitter, webinars, videos, sales collateral and more. But it's not just producing the content that's challenging, it's creating the kind of content that builds momentum in the buying process to develop more qualified leads worthy of sales pursuit.

According to IDC:

72% of B2B marketers surveyed indicate an increase in buying cycle time over the past six months, while the buying cycle timeframe has increased over 10% in the past 12 months

With buying now facilitated more often by online self-education and social exchanges, buyers are controlling when they engage, how often and to what extent. This means that B2B marketers need to continuously and consistently fuel online content marketing programs in parallel with their prospects.

Creating all that content can be a daunting task. But there are ways to lessen the load and make sourcing content easier without compromising the perceived value for your buyers.

Tommorow, I'm presenting a webinar with LeadFormix that will show you just how to win the content marketing marathon.

Date: February 9th, 2011

Time: 11am Pacific, 2pm Eastern

I'll be discussing:

• How to shift from campaigns to perpetual marketing programs.


• Secrets to creating content in volume that engages your prospects.


• What to do to help your content build buying momentum.


• How to help sales reps step into the buyer dialogue without slowing the pace.

Register Now

You may also be interested in this guest blog post I wrote for them about Creating Content to Fuel eMarketing Programs

I hope you'll join us!

Sales Support as B2B Marketing Leadership

I saw this Tweet from Adam Needles during Dreamforce and it's really bothering me. In all fairness to Stacey - I don't have the actual context, so I'm taking this at face value for this post.

@abneedles: "Good marketing doesn't matter. What matters is sales." via @staceyepstein at @Dreamforce #DF10 #B2B

My first knee-jerk reaction was something along the lines of, "Are you bleeping kidding me?" I couldn't believe that sentence would come from a VP of Marketing. Then I took a few (read a lot) of deep breaths and considered that perhaps what she meant was that if marketing doesn't result in sales, then it doesn't matter how brilliant it is.

Okay - that I can get behind, because truly at the end of the day, revenue must be the outcome of both marketing and sales. Then I saw this Tweet:

@abneedles "Salespeople feel they ... translate what they see as marketing's theoretical arguments into a practical message." @staceyepstein #DF10 #B2B

If this is indeed true, which could be illustrated by the hours that salespeople spend re-inventing or creating their own collateral, then marketing needs to step up. They're obviously missing the translation capability to get to the ground level of their buyers' perspectives.

This said, if salespeople really believe this, then why aren't they taking steps to show marketing how to translate? According to Sirius Decisions, buyers are 70% of their way through the buying process by the time they allow a sales conversation. If sales truly believe that marketing is irrelevant, then it would seem prudent to help them correct that misstep considering how much longer marketing has impact on the buying process before sales gets involved.

Why does it feel like marketing is the one who's supposed to do all the heavy lifting in the marketing-to-sales alignment endeavor?

Wouldn't it make sense to have sales actually help ensure that the 30% of time they get with a prospect is positioned to help them close deals? Or, even better, what if by working with marketing your salespeople could get into the buyer's process earlier - expanding the time they have to impact the buyer relationship? Ever considered that?

Marketing at 30,000 feet no longer counts. It's too far out of reach to be relevant to the people grasping with issues your offerings address. Vague pleasantries (as I call them) are from the old school of universal umbrella branding and awareness. The problem is time. There's less of it - a lot less. Specificity counts. Take that a step further to personalized specificity and you're a heck of a lot closer to content that buyers will find interesting.

Next up, the Tweet about a perspective that could put marketers back in the basement:

@abneedles Sounds like our session-track speakers int he sales/marketing alignment session see marketing in a sales-support role. Yikes. #DF10 #B2B

But, does it have to? The interpretation is dependent upon how "sales-support" is defined. If you consider that everything marketing does is focused on helping sales sell more by helping buyers buy (or it should be), then we are in a sales support role. However, sales support doesn't mean subservient. Adam gets to that with this Tweet:

@abneedles In a Web 2.0 world, #B2B marketing must become the leader of a holistic demand gen process -- not just tactical lead gen. #B2B #DF10

And, consider that sales doesn't have all the answers either. When exactly does that practical messaging translation come into play given this statistic?

KBlalock: RT @cahidalgo: 31% of reps r not prepared to speak to a prospect at time of first engagement via IDC #B2B #df10

Could this be due to a lack of respect for the work marketers are doing to get to know prospects well enough to catch and keep their attention for longer periods of time as cycles increase? Perhaps it's because many reps are schooled in products and solutions, but not so much about their prospect's reality, industry trends, influencers and competitive alternatives (Hint: Think beyond the obvious competitive choices).

This Tweet points out an interesting observation:

hoovers: RT @abneedles Sales-driven marketing is 'like driving with the rearview mirror.' via McAfee marketer #B2B #DF10

This is because salespeople are usually concentrating on the end-stages of the deal. They aren't paying attention to all that time prior to transition that's involved in the development of a sales-ready opportunity. If you only look at the buying process from the point at which sales will agree to pursue leads, you've missed a lot. (Read 70% of their buying process).

This Tweet gets to the goal. This is where marketing can create a noticeable impact. The skill sets that marketing needs to evolve are based on achieving this:

abneedles: Now listening to a top marketer at @InformaticaCorp talk about getting to predictable revenue via marketing. #B2B #DF10

As a final thought, consider that sales support is not just about your sales team. It's also about your buyers. Marketing needs to support the needs, priorities and interests of both. The more proactive they are about doing this, the more of a leadership role they can attain. Developing end-to-end lead management processes is a great place to start.

After all, isn't leadership about supporting the evolution and sustainability of success?

I missed being at Dreamforce this year. But, I'm thankful for all the Tweets that shared what was going on and made me think.

If Content Marketing is Important to You...

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Does Sales Care About Alignment with Marketing?

In case you're living under a rock, the Sales 2.0 Conference is on Day 2 in San Francisco. I've been following the Twitter stream since I'm not at the conference, and really wishing I was. Craig Rosenberg raised the issue of whether or not Sales cares about alignment with marketing? He said that during his panel discussion, he noticed that only marketers were talking about the issue.

This is an interesting point. Do they?

Perhaps the idea of aligning with marketing is about as enticing to Sales as using a CRM system was first perceived. In other words, Sales is likely saying - What's In It for Us?

There are a number of factors that support this perspective. For example - sales currently spends 40 - 60 hours a month reinventing marketing content that doesn't work for them, but should. They only accept a small percentage of leads that marketing generates because they don't think they're worthy of sales pursuit.

Although this seems to be a shared problem, the sales perception seems to hold sway.

@hoovers: Whether avg or best in class, a minimum of 70% of leads generated by sales or marketing do not close. #SM20

@AnnekeSeley Sales people spend 21% time on admin tasks, [field reps spend] 2.4 days/wk out of office, 11% preparing and researching pre-meetings per Alexander Group. #sm20

@milesaustin: Buyer behavior is changing rapidly du to free info, exec turnover. 20% of sales rep time is spent researching customers. #sm20

Now marketing comes along and says, Hey - we want credit for contribution to revenues. But most marketers' compensation isn't dependent upon meeting a revenue quota, although that may start changing.

@derekgrant: #sm20 - for the second time today, a Marketer (from @sap) noted the need for Marketing KPIs to be based in revenue generation goals.

@LoveMediaSales: "@HeinzMarketing: If you started the org from scratch, would sales & marketing be in the same group? Should they be? #sm20 <<Definitely yes

The point is that if alignment is going to happen, there has to be some kind of payoff for both sides. Marketing gains visibility to see how their programs convert leads to revenues, learns what works and what doesn't, lessens lead leakage through closed loop processes, etc. But sales gets...what? We need to show them.

Strikes me as the need for marketing to "market" to Sales and persuade them that their lives will be better if they work together. So what will it take for marketing to convert Sales on the value of alignment?

If they've been doing the work to develop personas, match qualified prospects to an agreed upon lead definition and develop and execute content strategies mapped to the buying process, it would seem like they'd have the information they need to help salespeople sell more effectively to more highly qualified leads.

But, apparently not:

@jcousineau: Mark Woollen says Mrktg + Sales now dealing w/different funnels. Bridging the gap in handoffs from 1 to the other a big problem #sm20

I'll leave you with this:

@HeinzMarketing: If you started the org from scratch, would sales & marketing be in the same group? Should they be? #sm20